PSSD/PFS/PAS - The P450 Enzymes - Possible Mechanism

This is a place to post research you have done on the topic along with your conclusions.
Kostakonkordia
Posts: 56
Joined: Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:33 pm
Contact:

Re: PSSD/PFS/PAS - The P450 Enzymes - Possible Mechanism

Unread post by Kostakonkordia »

Darman wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 1:56 am
nicopickle wrote: Wed Feb 23, 2022 1:10 am Hello. I've had PAS/PSSD for 2 and a half years now. I've been trying to find a common mechanism between these drugs that could be tracked down to elicit similar symptoms from completely different mechanisms. I recently read a post about a girls story about getting PSSD, in her story, she mentioned that she tested her P450 enzymes for which drugs would work best for her, basically every drug had red flags saying she couldn't metabolize them. This post brought me to the PFS forum, and there have been people talking about these enzymes for 10+ years, and recently a user named spstriken talked about how he believes these enzymes are responsible for our symptoms, and I actually also agree.

Now I bet a lot of people wonder about the cases from a single dose of a drug, or very limited doses. This always confused me, especially with things like the SSRI causing gut dysbiosis. However the gut theory also comes into play in a way here, these P450 enzymes are most notably in the small intestine, and liver. They may seem like they are only good for absorbing drugs, however they are extremely important, even from a simple google search, you can find out that they are responsible for hormone, breakdown, and synthetization, they are also responsible for absorbing vitamin D, as well as a multitude of other things.

Now there along with all of the things they are responsible for, they are also needed to metabolize many things. I've always wondered why people stop responding to alcohol, and other substances when developing PSSD, well I think that its directly linked to the state of these enzymes. However I don't believe that there is any sort of damage to these enzymes, I think there is some sort of immune response, which is a protective mechanism when we are heavily dosing these drugs.

When I read all of these recovery stories, I was always so confused, you have people recovering from the most random substances, and a lot of the time, people are even cured by going back on the drug that caused the issues initially. I used to always skim past these posts until I really thought about it. One of my favorite recovery posts is by a user named "pete" on the PSSD forum. He initially got worse from trying to reinstate a dose of paxil, the drug that caused his issues, but when he decided to take a very low dose, then take a break, he began to improve.

My temporary recovery:

I had a temporary improvement from a fecal matter transplant a few months back, it even seemed to hold a bit of permanent improvement over time. But the interesting thing is when I began to get improvements. I initially did the FMT through enema for about two weeks, I didn't have much improvement, but I continued anyway as people have mentioned that you need to do many transplants to populate the microbiome. I implemented capsule FMT through the top down method, within 5 minutes of taking two capsules I noticed a pulsing in my brain, this was kind of frightening but also very intriguing. Something was happening, after about a day I began to get VERY tired, something that has been absent since this condition started. I woke up the next day feeling very optimistic, something in me had changed, over the next day all of my symptoms seemed to improve. I kept taking more and more capsules as I thought I was going to be cured within a month. After a day or two all of my improvements started to fade, and I developed these bumps all over my toes and feet that progressed as I continued to dose. These bumps are a sign of an immune response, and are prevalent in people with covid, usually called covid toes.

I continued to try and replicate this over a month continuing the FMT's. I was never able to replicate that experience... until I took a decent break from the FMT, I stopped for maybe a week or two then tried another dose, I became very tired, and felt my memories flowing through my brain, I felt high. At this time I continued FMT every few days to try and continue benefits, however everything would fade again, however I somehow got permanent improvement in libido from this FMT, which I later crashed to another FMT, which was accompanied by a night of restless leg syndrome, strange right?

I continued to try and understand exactly what happened here, why did such a low dose have such impact, but anything more or more often would completely void all improvements? I remember reading about what exactly accutane was a while back, 13-cis retinoic acid. It's basically what a human body makes vitamin A into, its the endogenous version of vitamin A. So this made me wonder, did I take a very small amount of accutane inside of the FMT? This made me very interested in reinstatement. about a week back I took a low dose of accutane, 3mg within an hour I felt something, I felt a sensation where my neck meets my brain, 5 minutes later I felt a tingling sensation in my genitals along with a tingling on the front right part of my neck. This was accompanied by an increase of my senses, I could feel the comfort of my blanket, and smelling increased. I could also take deep breaths effortlessly, something that has been difficult since this started. Over the rest of the day I felt my body more, like I was more aware of what my body was doing (hard to explain). The next day I woke up and I felt a little weird, I felt so in control of my body, like walking was so effortless, it felt normal to walk around, I felt like my IQ increased and I just felt normal in my body. I didn't notice anything else during this next day so I decided to take 10mg, this was definitely a mistake as I began to feel almost high initially, but over the day I felt worse, that night I had restless leg syndrome again, I even experienced DPDR as my hands would randomly feel like they weren't mine, and it has now been about a week since the dose, and I've began to get red bumps on my toes again.

I am currently waiting a while before dosing anything again as whenever I get these toes, things have literally no effect on me.

Conclusions:



Every case of PSSD-like symptoms can be traced back to these enzymes, along with the majority of recoveries are also based around having impact on these enzymes. There is no reason for people to get such drastic recoveries in such a short period of time if the cause was anything else. I don't believe any of us have any sort of damage, I think that these enzymes are just doing their job and protecting us from overdosing. I believe the way to recover is to basically take an incredibly small amount of certain supplements then stop, and wait. We need to show our body that these substances wont cause problems by introducing small amounts, and allowing the body to react accordingly.
I have read that grapefruit juice can inhibit these enzymes. Would this help or make things worse?
Try it, i dont know of anyone who tried it before. Many substances inhibit those enzymes. Maybe we have to try a combination of herbs etc to tacle the variety of those. I think 3A4 and 2D6 are important to inhibit because they are mainly metabolizing drugs. And i think we need to take it longer because if it is a autoimmune reaction things need to settle down and it seems to be kinda random if and when it works. Most people who tried things just quit because it didn't work after one dose or when they get bad before getting better...
Kostakonkordia
Posts: 56
Joined: Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:33 pm
Contact:

Re: PSSD/PFS/PAS - The P450 Enzymes - Possible Mechanism

Unread post by Kostakonkordia »

HzeTmy wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 11:04 pm My allergy completely stopped after taking ginkgo 1 year and ginkgo has Quercetin ... But honestly i would take my allergy body back because i had no erection, libidlo problems back in days ...
Hmm thats kinda strange. For example ketoconazole also induces such effect and both of them inhibit certain enzymes which are responsible for steroid synthesis, so i kinda dont know right now if they could be over or underexpresses... Someone got an idea?
Kostakonkordia
Posts: 56
Joined: Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:33 pm
Contact:

Re: PSSD/PFS/PAS - The P450 Enzymes - Possible Mechanism

Unread post by Kostakonkordia »

lukejimmy wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 8:13 am
HzeTmy wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 1:07 pm I have another good theory, i watched this video about cyp enzymes https://youtu.be/vle_0dN3bwA

So ...

What if we was low in the cyp enzymes and the drugs was not metabolized fully and alot of unmetabolized parts entered our body because of leaky gut it's almost common that everyone had or has a leaky gut it often goes hand in hand very common alot of people don't know that actually nowdays depression is mainly a gut problem when the real body symptoms begin.

So we have now this unmetabolized particles everywhere inside our body, blood, brain and liver but the body can't get rid of it because when it was in the metabolic process we had not enough or no cyp enyzmes.

Make this sense ? If yes what would be your suggestion to detox unmetabolized drug particles out of the body where are they sitting ...
Yea well if you subscribe to my theory, this study https://sci-hub.se/https://pubmed.ncbi. ... /10755579/ and the fact it Fluoxetine is a PFAS Forever Chemical already proves it is true.
I'd say thats more then enough reason to get Risperidone, Venlafaxine and Citalopram Blood Tests In your case @HzeTmy.
Risperidone and Citalolpram are PFAS Forever Chemicals (both Per-FluoroAlkyl Substances) but Venlafaxine is chlorinated yet still metabolized by Cyp2d6, so therefore might act like a Forever Chemical in Genetically Deficient CYP2D6 Poor Metabolizers - 10% of the population.
Darman wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 2:45 am Ok this is a great theory. What can we do to pursue it?
If you believe this 3rd Person account, a Fluoroquinolone Toxicity Victim 'Venceremos' had apparently already figured out the Cause/Cure of PSSD/PFS/Fluoroquinolone Toxicity, a year before I even was prescribed Fluoxetine + Risperdal!!!
https://forum.propeciahelp.com/t/proof- ... de-us/5993
Very bizarre that 'xhorndog' is the only source for this supposed PROOF, almost a year after formerly extremely active user 'Venceremos' completely disappeared from the PFS Forum.
Which doesn't make any sense given he found proof and didn't come back to the forums to announce this Cure/Cause of our Conditions. I hope he wasn't killed trying to get this Information out to the World. There's heaps of threads on forum.propeciahelp.com discussing my theory just use the search term "still inside"

I'm still hesitating to get a blood test because I'm worried the drugs accumulated in tissue and am doing last minute research to make sure as much of the drug will be in the Blood as possible Vs Tissues. It's been around 3 years since I reinstated Prozac btw. Should probably stop procrastinating and get one ASAP idk they are quite expensive so want to do everything I can to maximize drug blood levels versus tissue accumulation.
I really doubt this is the case but go ahead and test it. Its kinda ironic that almost all people which where mentioned and improved in this propecia post are things recommend by the cutler protocol...
HzeTmy
Posts: 92
Joined: Tue May 17, 2022 1:31 pm
Contact:

Re: PSSD/PFS/PAS - The P450 Enzymes - Possible Mechanism

Unread post by HzeTmy »

What makes me wondering is why some people develop PSSD months after stopping meds. Any explain to that theory ?
lukejimmy
Posts: 60
Joined: Wed Aug 07, 2019 8:29 am
Contact:

Re: PSSD/PFS/PAS - The P450 Enzymes - Possible Mechanism

Unread post by lukejimmy »

Kostakonkordia wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 12:15 pm I really doubt this is the case but go ahead and test it. Its kinda ironic that almost all people which where mentioned and improved in this propecia post are things recommend by the cutler protocol...
https://sci-hub.se/https://pubmed.ncbi. ... /10755579/
This Genetic CYP2D6 Deficiency (10% of the Caucasian Population - think what Percentage develop PSSD) Case Report and https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9068197/ Proves that it is not a Theory, it is the Truth and a Fact. Recall that OP’s Girl was DEFICIENT in ALL her tested Cytochrome P450 enzymes.
Try telling me Fluoxetine isn’t a PFAS Forever Chemical.

Per-FluoroAlkyl Substances are Synonymously referred to as ‘Forever Chemicals’ because they are INFAMOUSLY KNOWN to have 5 half-lives ‘X’ up to Five Years long for each, which is ‘=‘ to it being detectable in the BLOOD for +20 years. Blood tests for PFAS have only been around for under 20 years .
What SSRI did you take @Konkordia?

It’s actually not Ironic at all, I’m sure you can figure out why a heavy metal detoxification protocol might be at least worth mentioning considering PFAS and Heavy Metals share in common the Characteristic that they are are Persistent Organic Pollutants and Persistent Bioaccumulative Toxic Substances that can last in the body for Years.
So I don’t get the condescendence unless I’m missing something and Andrew Cutlers is a convicted Paedophile or something haha...

If you believe in the AutoImmune Theory then you HAVE to believe in the PRESUPPOSITION that SSRI is STILL INSIDE, a prerequisite to an AutoImmune Response is the necessitation of an ANTIGENs presence.

Same goes with Gut changes, you stop taking the SSRI and excrete it 100% then your body will revert to normals pre-drug conditions through normal natural homeostatic mechanisms, not magically retain the same Gut environment you had YEARS ago when you took X SSRI.

Epigenetic Changes won’t just Mystically stay Frozen in time from day you took SSRI’s Years ago, the Drug MUST be in the body for there to be Persistent Epigenetic Changes as the environmental factor that has caused these changes obviously has to be present to maintain them, otherwise the body will revert back to pre-SSRI Normal Genetic Expression Homeostasis as is the case with any other Epigenetic Mechanism in Humans.

This theories can’t Survive in a Vacuum as they do not explain the key ‘Persistence’ of a Post-Drug Condition(s).
Obviously the Gut Microbiome, an AutoImmune Response akin to that of Drug-Induced Lupus and Gene Expression would have a role in and influence PSSD Symptomalogy ONLY if you have the underlying Theory Unification PRECONCEPTION that SSRIs are PFAS Forever Chemicals. Which is not a Theory but more so a Fact given SSRI’s are under the Classification of Per-FluoroAlkyl Substances by DEFINITION. They are extremely Hydrophobic Synthetic Per-Fluorinated Fluoro-Carbons, Fluorine Atoms are not found in nature hence the https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biomagnification, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bioaccumulation, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persist ... substances and most importantly https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persist ... _pollutant Qualities of these SSRI drugs/toxins.
HzeTmy
Posts: 92
Joined: Tue May 17, 2022 1:31 pm
Contact:

Re: PSSD/PFS/PAS - The P450 Enzymes - Possible Mechanism

Unread post by HzeTmy »

So taking out my amalgam fillings + constantly detoxing heavy metals will maybe revert PSSD ?
Kostakonkordia
Posts: 56
Joined: Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:33 pm
Contact:

Re: PSSD/PFS/PAS - The P450 Enzymes - Possible Mechanism

Unread post by Kostakonkordia »

lukejimmy wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 9:52 pm
Kostakonkordia wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 12:15 pm I really doubt this is the case but go ahead and test it. Its kinda ironic that almost all people which where mentioned and improved in this propecia post are things recommend by the cutler protocol...
https://sci-hub.se/https://pubmed.ncbi. ... /10755579/
This Genetic CYP2D6 Deficiency (10% of the Caucasian Population - think what Percentage develop PSSD) Case Report and https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9068197/ Proves that it is not a Theory, it is the Truth and a Fact. Recall that OP’s Girl was DEFICIENT in ALL her tested Cytochrome P450 enzymes.
Try telling me Fluoxetine isn’t a PFAS Forever Chemical.

Per-FluoroAlkyl Substances are Synonymously referred to as ‘Forever Chemicals’ because they are INFAMOUSLY KNOWN to have 5 half-lives ‘X’ up to Five Years long for each, which is ‘=‘ to it being detectable in the BLOOD for +20 years. Blood tests for PFAS have only been around for under 20 years .
What SSRI did you take @Konkordia?

It’s actually not Ironic at all, I’m sure you can figure out why a heavy metal detoxification protocol might be at least worth mentioning considering PFAS and Heavy Metals share in common the Characteristic that they are are Persistent Organic Pollutants and Persistent Bioaccumulative Toxic Substances that can last in the body for Years.
So I don’t get the condescendence unless I’m missing something and Andrew Cutlers is a convicted Paedophile or something haha...

If you believe in the AutoImmune Theory then you HAVE to believe in the PRESUPPOSITION that SSRI is STILL INSIDE, a prerequisite to an AutoImmune Response is the necessitation of an ANTIGENs presence.

Same goes with Gut changes, you stop taking the SSRI and excrete it 100% then your body will revert to normals pre-drug conditions through normal natural homeostatic mechanisms, not magically retain the same Gut environment you had YEARS ago when you took X SSRI.

Epigenetic Changes won’t just Mystically stay Frozen in time from day you took SSRI’s Years ago, the Drug MUST be in the body for there to be Persistent Epigenetic Changes as the environmental factor that has caused these changes obviously has to be present to maintain them, otherwise the body will revert back to pre-SSRI Normal Genetic Expression Homeostasis as is the case with any other Epigenetic Mechanism in Humans.

This theories can’t Survive in a Vacuum as they do not explain the key ‘Persistence’ of a Post-Drug Condition(s).
Obviously the Gut Microbiome, an AutoImmune Response akin to that of Drug-Induced Lupus and Gene Expression would have a role in and influence PSSD Symptomalogy ONLY if you have the underlying Theory Unification PRECONCEPTION that SSRIs are PFAS Forever Chemicals. Which is not a Theory but more so a Fact given SSRI’s are under the Classification of Per-FluoroAlkyl Substances by DEFINITION. They are extremely Hydrophobic Synthetic Per-Fluorinated Fluoro-Carbons, Fluorine Atoms are not found in nature hence the https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biomagnification, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bioaccumulation, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persist ... substances and most importantly https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persist ... _pollutant Qualities of these SSRI drugs/toxins.
I honestly still doubt this is the case. People got pssd from non pfas chemicals like 5htp, ashwanganda etc. Also some people took the ssris for alot of years didn't have any side effects and got it after discontinuation.
And im generally a bit sceptical of these genetic tests as they dont show active cyp also cyp is know to just be diverse amongst people, thats their nature, but it indeed could play a part. Also i have seen that some people had completely "normal" cyp genetics.
And don't get too confident about your theory(too many have made this mistake saying they found the cause etc.)because this is all still a mistery and i haven't seen yet any tests that show that ssris are still lingering in us...
I took venlafaxin.
No Andrew Cutler is definitely legit. He was also convinced that pssd etc. are related to mercury and he was a phd chemist(not that this says anything im general but some people adore authority) and dedicated his life to helping sick people.
Yes but the difference between mercury and ssri which you claim stay in the body for a long time is that mercury has a known halflife of 25 years and is extreeeeeemly toxic which i think can be said about some pfas but i dont think those two categories are really comparable im regards to their toxicity.
I think its important to take your theory into consideration but at least in my mind it doesn't really make much sense to be honest...
Kostakonkordia
Posts: 56
Joined: Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:33 pm
Contact:

Re: PSSD/PFS/PAS - The P450 Enzymes - Possible Mechanism

Unread post by Kostakonkordia »

lukejimmy wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 9:52 pm
Kostakonkordia wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 12:15 pm I really doubt this is the case but go ahead and test it. Its kinda ironic that almost all people which where mentioned and improved in this propecia post are things recommend by the cutler protocol...
https://sci-hub.se/https://pubmed.ncbi. ... /10755579/
This Genetic CYP2D6 Deficiency (10% of the Caucasian Population - think what Percentage develop PSSD) Case Report and https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9068197/ Proves that it is not a Theory, it is the Truth and a Fact. Recall that OP’s Girl was DEFICIENT in ALL her tested Cytochrome P450 enzymes.
Try telling me Fluoxetine isn’t a PFAS Forever Chemical.

Per-FluoroAlkyl Substances are Synonymously referred to as ‘Forever Chemicals’ because they are INFAMOUSLY KNOWN to have 5 half-lives ‘X’ up to Five Years long for each, which is ‘=‘ to it being detectable in the BLOOD for +20 years. Blood tests for PFAS have only been around for under 20 years .
What SSRI did you take @Konkordia?

It’s actually not Ironic at all, I’m sure you can figure out why a heavy metal detoxification protocol might be at least worth mentioning considering PFAS and Heavy Metals share in common the Characteristic that they are are Persistent Organic Pollutants and Persistent Bioaccumulative Toxic Substances that can last in the body for Years.
So I don’t get the condescendence unless I’m missing something and Andrew Cutlers is a convicted Paedophile or something haha...

If you believe in the AutoImmune Theory then you HAVE to believe in the PRESUPPOSITION that SSRI is STILL INSIDE, a prerequisite to an AutoImmune Response is the necessitation of an ANTIGENs presence.

Same goes with Gut changes, you stop taking the SSRI and excrete it 100% then your body will revert to normals pre-drug conditions through normal natural homeostatic mechanisms, not magically retain the same Gut environment you had YEARS ago when you took X SSRI.

Epigenetic Changes won’t just Mystically stay Frozen in time from day you took SSRI’s Years ago, the Drug MUST be in the body for there to be Persistent Epigenetic Changes as the environmental factor that has caused these changes obviously has to be present to maintain them, otherwise the body will revert back to pre-SSRI Normal Genetic Expression Homeostasis as is the case with any other Epigenetic Mechanism in Humans.

This theories can’t Survive in a Vacuum as they do not explain the key ‘Persistence’ of a Post-Drug Condition(s).
Obviously the Gut Microbiome, an AutoImmune Response akin to that of Drug-Induced Lupus and Gene Expression would have a role in and influence PSSD Symptomalogy ONLY if you have the underlying Theory Unification PRECONCEPTION that SSRIs are PFAS Forever Chemicals. Which is not a Theory but more so a Fact given SSRI’s are under the Classification of Per-FluoroAlkyl Substances by DEFINITION. They are extremely Hydrophobic Synthetic Per-Fluorinated Fluoro-Carbons, Fluorine Atoms are not found in nature hence the https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biomagnification, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bioaccumulation, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persist ... substances and most importantly https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persist ... _pollutant Qualities of these SSRI drugs/toxins.
This is a difficult theoretical question and i dont know enough to answer why there is a ongoing autoimmune reaction dysbiosis etc. Maybe some feetback mechanism(i agree epigenetics are bs considering the severity of the symptoms) but i simply dont know enough about the immunesystem at this point to make a conclusion about that.
Kostakonkordia
Posts: 56
Joined: Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:33 pm
Contact:

Re: PSSD/PFS/PAS - The P450 Enzymes - Possible Mechanism

Unread post by Kostakonkordia »

HzeTmy wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 10:25 pm So taking out my amalgam fillings + constantly detoxing heavy metals will maybe revert PSSD ?
Yes i think so and trying to modulate cytochrome plus trying alot of different supplements.
Its honestly the only rational thing we can do at this point in my opinion also all the hair mineral tests of pssd folks show high probability of mercury with the cutler mineral derangement interpretation method.
By the way im not sure why some people got healed by b vitamins, someone got an idea? Did i ask this question already? Sorry i forget such things sometimes...
tonyareias
Posts: 288
Joined: Sat Mar 30, 2019 8:02 pm
Contact:

Re: PSSD/PFS/PAS - The P450 Enzymes - Possible Mechanism

Unread post by tonyareias »

Kostakonkordia wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 9:32 pm
HzeTmy wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 10:25 pm So taking out my amalgam fillings + constantly detoxing heavy metals will maybe revert PSSD ?
Yes i think so and trying to modulate cytochrome plus trying alot of different supplements.
Its honestly the only rational thing we can do at this point in my opinion also all the hair mineral tests of pssd folks show high probability of mercury with the cutler mineral derangement interpretation method.
By the way im not sure why some people got healed by b vitamins, someone got an idea? Did i ask this question already? Sorry i forget such things sometimes...
I talked with dentist in past and he said that there’s no amalgam problem. The unique problem can be when you put or remove and is minor, sea fish is more toxic.
Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests