Partial/temporary recovery story

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oldfriend
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Partial/temporary recovery story

Unread post by oldfriend »

Thought I would share an experience I had a couple years ago as some of you may find it interesting.

Summer 2018 I was experimenting with ray peat-style eating and supplements, and had a long period of reversal of many of my PSSD symptoms.
My approach was a diet of mostly milk, sugar, and fruit. Supplements were mainly high dose vitamin c, metergoline, thiamine, magnesium, vitamin E and K, cyproheptadine, and possibly taurine and/or glycine (can't remember). Also going for long walks in sunlight, throwing caution and worries to the wind, and dabbling in butekyo breathing practices.

The results were pretty insane. Had a few random sexual encounters that were almost entirely symptom free at the beginning, and started a 2 year long relationship. Both quality of and ability to maintain erection improved, refractory period minimized (remember having sex 3 or 4 times some days), sensitivity somewhat improved, desire for sex substantially improved (actually felt a bit lecherous at times). I felt like I was 18 again at times, even better than pre-PSSD in some ways. Some symptoms were still present though. From what I can remember, sensitivity, although improved, at times was unreliable, and I still required stimulation to get a full erection some of the time.

It ended up that the regimen was not sustainable after a couple of months though as I got very constipated and started feeling terrible in some ways. I had been using lactose-free milk which I now know was a source of constipation, high blood sugar (high glucose content of lactose-free milk) was not remedied by supplements to improve glucose oxidation etc. I ended up switching to cheese, fruit, greens, and meat which was still supportive but not as much as the milk regimen.

Anyways, I think the most impactful of the supplements were vitamin C and metergoline, although cyproheptadine does seem to have a minor but significant libido enhancing effect that I can't discount. Also unsure of thiamine as I stopped after a few weeks, but I do recall that the overall effect of the regimen was strongest at the beginning when I was taking it.

High dose vitamin C does a lot of good things, but chief among them is boosting testosterone and dopamine. Metergoline antagonizes serotonin, agonizes dopamine and also influences hormonal profile (increased DHT and T, decreased E and prolactin). It may be that 5HT1A antagonism from both cyproheptadine and metergoline was helpful. Thiamine increases CO2 through carbonic anhydrase inhibition; Ray Peat thinks CO2 supports erections in the absence of Nitric Oxide which he considers to be a stress hormone and very bad in excess (things like L-citrulline, viagra, and nitroglycerin fuck me up, so I tend to agree). Milk is very dopaminergic IMO, and also anti-prolactin (due to calcium content). Also, I was drinking 1% and I think that low fat diet can play a profoundly beneficial part in these things, although it's taking a lot of work to adapt to it in my case. Vitamin E and K and Magnesium, taurine are all anti-estrogen and testosterone-promoting.

I've been wanting to reproduce this experiment or one like it, but have been focusing on gut health/transit time and metabolism. I'm getting closer to finding a sustainable way to do it. I do have some reservations about dopamine agonists though. They are certainly no free lunch. High adrenaline (anxiety) and irritability are significant side effects IME. Plus, I think the lechery-inducing effect, while miles better than no libido/desire, is not exactly healthy. I will probably try buspar + cyproheptadine next, as a member of RP forum is having great success with that combo but for different reasons. Really curious about buspar despite the mixed reactions reported here. Purportedly cypro balances the cortisol and prolactin increase from buspar, and buspar balances the slight dopamine-lowering effect of cypro. I wonder how many people stopped buspar because of prolactin/aromatization, tried to support it with diet, or pushed through the relapse in symptoms after the initial recovery. Perhaps Cypro's slight antagonism of 5HT1A encourages the development of new receptor sites / discourages desensitization as well though he theorizes that buspar is more of a silent antagonist anyways.
DrugsAreBad
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Re: Partial/temporary recovery story

Unread post by DrugsAreBad »

I just recently posted a link (viewtopic.php?f=10&t=4097) to a blog with some suggestions for regiments. Interestingly those suggestions are largely in line with yours. He suggests that there is no one thing that will work, but that a combination is required that sensitizes / antagonizes serotonin receptors and increases dopamine. That's what your regimen does as far as I can tell.

You mention thiamine or vitamin B1. There is a chemical derived from and similar to B1 called sulbutiamine which has been prescribed to treat fatigue or weakness. Sulbutiamine sensitized dopamine (D1) receptors. Perhaps B1 itself does something similar but less potently.

Evidence for a modulatory effect of sulbutiamine on glutamatergic and dopaminergic cortical transmissions in the rat brain
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10996447/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulbutiamine
oldfriend
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Re: Partial/temporary recovery story

Unread post by oldfriend »

DrugsAreBad wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 6:01 am I just recently posted a link (viewtopic.php?f=10&t=4097) to a blog with some suggestions for regiments. Interestingly those suggestions are largely in line with yours. He suggests that there is no one thing that will work, but that a combination is required that sensitizes / antagonizes serotonin receptors and increases dopamine. That's what your regimen does as far as I can tell.

You mention thiamine or vitamin B1. There is a chemical derived from and similar to B1 called sulbutiamine which has been prescribed to treat fatigue or weakness. Sulbutiamine sensitized dopamine (D1) receptors. Perhaps B1 itself does something similar but less potently.

Evidence for a modulatory effect of sulbutiamine on glutamatergic and dopaminergic cortical transmissions in the rat brain
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10996447/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulbutiamine
Yeah that article was written by Hans who is a regular on Ray Peat forum.

I was reading up on Thiamine last night and remembered that it has a lot of beneficial qualities. Supports digestion, focus, carb metabolism, etc. Definitely worth trying again
oldfriend
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Re: Partial/temporary recovery story

Unread post by oldfriend »

So I've been collecting my thoughts about the experiment I did a couple years ago and realized that I was focusing on lowering estrogen, when I really should have been focusing on raising DHT and might have been inadvertently doing that. Estrogen dominance was definitely a problem for me post-SSRI as labs confirmed, but supplementing to lower estrogen has been a double-edged sword. I think it's why some people will initially do well on zinc, but experience a worsening of symptoms or no benefit after a few days for example.

Estrogen is essential for sexual function, and driving it too low can be just as bad (or worse) as having it elevated in that arena. Cortisol plays a part, as testosterone will aromatize to estrogen if it's too high. Keeping cortisol levels down has been a lot easier for me these days though. Eating many small meals throughout the day to keep blood sugar stable and cutting down on caffeine have been game-changers. Managing estrogen is obviously more complicated than that, but I think preventing aromatization is important because T is then more likely to convert to DHT which lowers estrogen by itself and is pro-sexual function.

Also, Vitamins B1 (thiamine) + B2 are required for the liver to detox estrogen, so that may be part of the reason thiamine was helpful.

I have started a new experiment like the last. A diet of mostly 1% milk and fruit with a meal of greens and meat (either red meat, oysters, liver, or shrimp) at dinner time. I started 5mg buspar 2x/day and 1mg cyproheptadine a few days ago. I am also supplementing E, K, Glycine, Creatine, Niacin, Magnesium and have some C, Thiamine, and Taurine on the way. I've already seen improvements in my erections doing this, but it's still early. Will update again in a few weeks in case anyone's reading.
Last edited by oldfriend on Thu Nov 26, 2020 11:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.
oldfriend
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Re: Partial/temporary recovery story

Unread post by oldfriend »

A good thread from RP forum on DHT: https://raypeatforum.com/community/thre ... etc.26461/
Bolded some things that seem like obvious overlap with the first experiment.
Why DHT is Awesome

- Great confidence
- Great erections
- Fantastic sex drive
- Deeper Voice
- Better workouts

Some Principles that I've picked up from reading the forum (please feel free to correct, add onto, etc):

- More testosterone is good, because T converts to DHT via 5AR enzyme
- So I guess we want all the things that can increase 5AR
- Thyroid function is somehow important (well it's good in general) but in particular it's involved in making DHT. I read this somewhere, would like to confirm/dis-confirm, and understand the mechanism why.

Known DHT Enhancers (please feel free to correct, add onto, etc):

- Creatine
- Fat Soluble Vitamins (A, D, E, K2)
- Niacinamide (Vitamin B3)
- Vitamin B6
- Glycine
- Taurine
- Androsterone (* I'll put a star next to items that are hormones)
- Caffeine
- T3 (*)

Possible DHT Enhancers

- Calcium (known to help increase T levels)
- Magnesium (known to help increase T levels)
- Zinc (helps with T but some sources say is dose-dependent effect)
- Sugar (seems to help with energy and thyroid, but online sources say sugar lowers T levels? Not my experience)
- Ginseng (pops up on Google)
- "Tribulus but the right concentration" (should find a source)
- " Nicotine [smoker] to inhibit breakdown to weaker metabolites"

Food and Diet

- Not entirely sure for anything specific. Definitely avoiding PUFA and the usual suspects.
- But should we focus on higher carbs? Saturated fats?
- How important is protein as a proportion of total calories?

- Raw Milk
- Cholesterol (what are good food sources?)

Lifestyle Factors

- Being calm and in control
- Moving into managerial positions and having subordinates; increases social status and thus probably hormones
- Lots of sex
- High quality deep sleep
- "Winning", i.e. getting positive outcomes you want, and not feeling constrained and held down somehow
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Delfador
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Re: Partial/temporary recovery story

Unread post by Delfador »

I am not rejecting your theory and regimen. In fact, I think it's quite interesting.

Aftet reading your original post, I'm glad you corrected your view on estrogen on another comment.

Unless you use an aromatase inhibitor, there is no point in reducing estradiol while trying to raise androgens. It makes no sense. And yes, there is no libido without estrogen. Estrogen is even more important to libido than testosterone itself.

As for milk and cheese, I highly doubt their efficacy... living in france, dairy is my staple food. I dont notice much improvement on it.

Also, no need for this whole regimen, we can test this theory easilly with dht cream, or a combo of trt and AI.
climb
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Re: Partial/temporary recovery story

Unread post by climb »

oldfriend wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 10:24 pm I started 5mg buspar 2x/day and 1mg cyproheptadine a few days ago. I am also supplementing E, K, Glycine, Creatine, Niacin, Magnesium and have some C, Thiamine, and Taurine on the way. I've already seen improvements in my erections doing this, but it's still early. Will update again in a few weeks in case anyone's reading.
I've just started buspirone and will increase gradually to the therapeutic dose and then hopefully increase to the higher doses. Interesting that you're combining this with cyproheptadine. Are you planning to cycle cypro occasionally? Are you getting rebound effects from that or instant improvement?
oldfriend
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Re: Partial/temporary recovery story

Unread post by oldfriend »

Delfador wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 2:11 am I am not rejecting your theory and regimen. In fact, I think it's quite interesting.

Aftet reading your original post, I'm glad you corrected your view on estrogen on another comment.

Unless you use an aromatase inhibitor, there is no point in reducing estradiol while trying to raise androgens. It makes no sense. And yes, there is no libido without estrogen. Estrogen is even more important to libido than testosterone itself.

As for milk and cheese, I highly doubt their efficacy... living in france, dairy is my staple food. I dont notice much improvement on it.

Also, no need for this whole regimen, we can test this theory easilly with dht cream, or a combo of trt and AI.
What I was trying to say is that supplementing to lower estrogen outside of a regimen like this never did much for me. At that time I was trying to lower estradiol because it was elevated in my bloodwork, but focusing too much on estrogen and taking drugs like exemestane or supplementing zinc every day had a deleterious effect. I think a degree of estrogen inhibition is probably helpful, and many of the supplements I take like oysters (zinc), magnesium, and vitamin E, vitamin K act as estrogen synthesis inhibitors or aromatase inhibitors. But they are also essential nutrient and have a broad range of effects. I'm supplementing these things now because they are either lacking in my diet, supportive of other nutrients (e.g. K and magnesium are necessary for utilization of calcium) , or protective (e.g. vitamin E inhibits lipid peroxidation and ray peat thinks it's a good idea to take while depleting stored PUFA).

In hindsight, I think that the pattern I established, the combination of diet and supplements, and the success I had could have more to do with DHT than estrogen. I'm not just trying to increase DHT though. What I'm doing is taking a holistic approach to kickstart metabolism and androgen production, optimize bowel and organ function, and support healthy serotonin and dopamine levels with diet, supplements, lifestyle, and a couple of fairly benign drugs. I'm not even certain that drugs are necessary, and have intuited that a person can facilitate recovery with the correct approach. I just think it would take longer without drugs and require a high degree of intuition and determination.

Re: DHT, TRT and AI I think it's far too easy to tip the balance of hormones. You risk crashing cortisol and estrogen which creates new problems. I don't know anyone who has benefitted greatly from taking DHT or a derivative (myself included). AI's weren't helpful in my case, and are often toxic to the liver. I think the best way to go about hormone therapy is without hormones, if that makes sense. I.e. provide conditions and building blocks for endogenous hormone production.

Re: milk and cheese, I've only had success with low-fat milk. Cheese has never done me any favors probably because there's no lactose or whey, and because it can be constipating. I mentioned low fat being important in the first post. I'm not sure why that is, maybe the estrogen content of milk is concentrated in the fat, maybe too much fat interferes with optimal liver function, or maybe this quote from the DHT thread has something to do with it:
To get the maximum output you'll need to eat as little fat as possible while keeping saturated:unsaturated fat ratio high. That doesn't mean to eat lots of saturated fat but to eat enough sugar to create the necessary saturated fats(palmitic and stearic acid) for you. Those fatty acids won't interfere with the enzymes needed for steroid metabolism and are very pro thyroid in general.
One of the first posts I made on this forum was about having partial success with a low-fat fruitarian diet for half the day. I would occassionally eat nothing but bananas in the morning, and would experience raging libido, rock hard erections, and restored sensitivity for a few hours afterwards. Possibly due to the dopamine content of bananas, but the important thing is that I didn't get this effect if I added any fat to the meal.
Last edited by oldfriend on Fri Nov 27, 2020 3:41 pm, edited 4 times in total.
oldfriend
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Re: Partial/temporary recovery story

Unread post by oldfriend »

climb wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 8:17 am
I've just started buspirone and will increase gradually to the therapeutic dose and then hopefully increase to the higher doses. Interesting that you're combining this with cyproheptadine. Are you planning to cycle cypro occasionally? Are you getting rebound effects from that or instant improvement?
I'm trying this combo because someone on RP forum is doing well with it. He mentioned the combined mechanisms are similar to newer drugs like vraylar and rexulti (which has restored sensitivity for some people). I've used cypro in the past and gotten some minor libido-enhancing effects, but I'm more interested in offsetting the cortisol and prolactin-increasing effects of buspar. My diet / supplementation / lifestyle also discourage prolactin and cortisol. I've also experienced insomnia from buspar, and it's helped with that as well. I'm equally if not moreso interested in the anxiolytic properties of buspar as I've been stuck in a rut since the beginning of the pandemic. My relationship ended, moved in with my parents in a rural community where I don't know anyone. I'm taking online classes which is good but need to work on developing a social life here.
PsychoGenesis
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Re: Partial/temporary recovery story

Unread post by PsychoGenesis »

i hear raypeat and all that comes after sounds like a word salad trying to prove some "exclusive" concept
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